The Heated Debate
[Should grandparents or foster care providers be the states first choice for placement when children are removed from their parents' custody?]
C Wrote:Placement should be based on more than relationship. If grandparents are considered fit, than they should get the children. But, they need to be investigated like anyone else that are receiving the children.
X Wrote:It DISGUSTS me that anyone can take a child away from you with no evidence what so ever of any type of abuse. I heard a story about a mother and father who had a son and he broke his arm when he was about 3 months old. They took him to the hospital and he was taken away right there. They then put him into foster care and the family doctor soon found out that there son had a disorder where your bones are very fragile (don’t remember the name sorry) and can break very easily. Even then the social workers said that the parents did it and when they had supervised visits they would break there sons arms. The whole story was barbaric and even after doctor after doctor would tell the social workers that the parents are not doing it that it was the disorder, they did everything in there power to keep the son away from there very innocent parents. A few years later the family got there son back after the court ruled that "the parents showed to have changed and gone through the parenting classes successfully". There was more to the story but it was just completely barbaric that anyone could do this to a child and his family with no sign that there was any type of abuse.
G Wrote:Grandparents should have the right to temporary custody. In the article in today’s paper there is no evidence of any abuse. The child should have never been removed in the first place. There is a problem with the system. No grounds for removal. We need a change in our legal system. To protect the children not to satisfy the legal system or some government agency.
A Wrote:Each case is different…the question is too general. In a perfect world…the grandparents…but this is far from a perfect world.
i vote no first choice. Until questions of ‘learned behavior’ are answered.
IN Wrote:Horrible story but you have to realize that for every story like this one, there are 5 or 6 more where a child was not taken or where a child was given back to the parents and abuse happened again.
In a lot of those cases the Grandparents had the kids at one point.
I think there should be qualifiers for the grandparents, just like there is for foster parents. Maybe even the same training and requirements. I have seen too many cases where the kids went to live with their grandparents and the same thing happened. (some times worse)
Yet I do agree that the grandparents/relatives should have the first shot at the child.
Working for an agency that has foster care and residential programs I have seen my share of what some parents can do, and it never fails to shock me what some can do.
VictimofCPS Wrote:What about the lifelong irreversible damage caused by corrupt cops, social workers, foster “parents,” judges, attorneys, and government agencies?
Cr Wrote:I am a grandparent that has my grandchild placed with me through social services and I feel that any child removed while any investigation is being done needs to be placed in the least restrictive environment whether it be a grandparent or any other relative.
L Wrote:I believe that grandparents should have a state background check like I had to try and get my 4 grandchildren, my state check came back clean, I attended foster parent training, CPR and First Aide, TB test, done all that and then I find out due to a substantial report that a case was never opened, which was Educational Neglect, not child neglect or abuse, see when my daughter was 16 she was of legal age to quit school, I couldnt make her go to school at 16, Lord knows I tried, but the welfare got a call from the school, so when they came to my house all they said to me was that I had to go to the school to legally sign her out, so because of that I could never get a foster care license in Terre Haute, now I could understand if it was child abuse but it wasnt. So I mention I would move to Kentucky to get my grandkids through Kinship, and the Cabinet in Kentucky tells me that I couldnt get them only because they think that I would stay there living long enough till the case was closed and bring them back to Indiana where I am buying a house, they dont feel that would be in the best interest of the children, WHAT I would be giving them a permanent place to live in Indiana, I dont plan on selling my home, so what is their problem????
Any suggestions on what I can or should do about this?
ML Wrote:No matter what the family should always be preserved. Everyone has skeletons in their closets, even foster people. A child would always be more comfortable being with a grandparent then someone they have never met and doesn't have any real interest of where that child came from other than making money.
AN Wrote:I disagree for one main reason:
1) There is too great a chance of those grandparent facilitating the parent in question. If a court orders a mother to stay away from the kids and the grandparents have them, who is more likely to keep the mother away? A direct, blood relative who birthed the miscreant or a separate family not related to or associated with the situation?
The happiness and welfare of a child has nothing to do with genetics.
VictimofCPS Wrote: You are the epitome of everything wrong in our society and in our juvenile courts. Might I suggest that you talk to some of these “miscreants” and their children -- you may be surprised to find out who the true miscreants are!
You must be a judge, attorney, social worker, foster “parent,” or some other party benefiting from the torture of innocent children and families – which one are you ... please tell us?
AR Wrote: that is actually incorrect, the happiness and welfare of the children has much to do with family relations. Further since less then 3% of removals are actual abuse it should not apply.
the other removals are for alleged neglect which is more often then not poverty. The ones that are so often trumpeted in the media are the exception not the rule.
AR Wrote:
unfortunately, in many places it's becoming common place to remove the child without evidence and place in foster care. While foster parents do not receive much money the state and counties do, money that they do not have to account for.
AR Wrote:Yes they do want to adopt out the children!!!! They get federal money for adopting out children that is why they put obstacles in the path of families.
AN Wrote: Family isn’t necessarily genetic. THAT’s my point. Take an infant from an abusive, neglectful birth mother, raise him or her with loving, non-related parents and that child is better off. Better off than with the grandparents where he or she will be raised in an environment that is a reminder of the situation.
For you to state that blood relation matters more is wrong. Do what is best for the child. Don't hang on to these vague and wishy-washy concepts of "keep it in the family." If it is best for the child to leave the situation, let him or her LEAVE the situation including the, necessarily involved, grandparents.
VictimofCPS Wrote:
Here are just a few definitions of family for you:
1) A fundamental social group in society typically consisting of one or two PARENTS AND THEIR CHILDREN; (2) A group of persons sharing COMMON ancestry; (3) LINEAGE, especially distinguished lineage; (4) A group of BLOOD RELATIVES; (5) A group of RELATED plants or animals; (6) A group of LIKE things; (7) Biology: A taxonomic category of RELATED organisms; (8) Linguistics: A group of languages descended from the SAME PARENT LANGUAGE;(9) Chemistry: A group of elements with SIMILAR chemical properties. Or perhaps you will appreciate the following definition: A locally independent organized crime unit, as of the Cosa Nostra … and I would like to add CPS and their co-conspirators.
MM Wrote:No it certainly doesn't. This is a very difficult issue for society because we don't agree what is the best interest of the child. Although I don't mean to imply that bad parenting is the only cause of people having problems it does strike me as weird that people who have been visibly unsuccessful as parents take another shot at it.
BE Wrote:While that may be true, children will eventually grow up and learn who they really are. I think it would be best for them to know who their true family is.
DT Wrote:I have been reading with interest these posts since the started. I wholeheartedly agree with AN. I am a foster and adoptive parent. My 3 y/o daughter was brought to us when she was 4 months old. She was malnourished and failure to thrive. Parents could not tell the social workers when the last time she ate. In addition, our daughter was a drug baby and has brain damage because her mom took drugs and drank the whole time she was pregnant. Grandmother had no home and a criminal history a mile long. You are telling me that my daughter should have been given to these people. They would have had to take her from me over my dead body. Blood is not thicker than water Love is
FA Wrote: Yes - Grandparents should be investigated for long term placement to insure they are not child abusers. However, a simple home visit and a little common sense should suffice for a temporary placement. If an investigation is done, it should again use common sense. Instead they drag in ridiculous old history that had nothing to do with child neglect or endangerment. If they put our USA Presidents through such rigorous investigations, we would not find anyone clean enough and if we did, they would have to give up their children after the investigation because they would fail CPS rules to be a parents Also, I might add that foster parents are not scrutinized to the same level as biological parents.
Having a child drop out of school at 16 years old is not child neglect. Anyone ever tried to make a sixteen year old go to school? This excluded one grandparent!
DT Wrote: I agree the system is overwhelmed. My post was really aimed at those people who felt that under all circumstances children should be placed with family.
And we are slowly becoming "experts" on FAS, support groups, educational conferences, books, etc. Please let me know if you know of any resources at all.
VictimofCPS Wrote:If grandparents should be put through background checks, etc … what’s next? Should everyone planning to have children be required to pass a background check, parenting training, CPR, First Aide, TB tests, etc? When and where do we draw the line on government interference into the personal lives of free citizens of this country? Also, why are constitutional, criminal, moral, and ethical laws allowed to be broken in juvenile court?
VictimofCPS Wrote:Dt … no offense to you, perhaps you truly mean well; but 99.9% of what the social workers are feeding foster “parents” is a load of crap. And “your daughter” should be with the parents God chose for her. Please read http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/07/goodbye-meeting.html. If you need additional TRUTHS, just let me know.
DT Wrote: I would be very interested in your background on the foster care system that allows you to know that "99.9% of what the social workers feed us is crap"
For your information, OUR DAUGHTER is with the parents God chose for her.
VictimofCPS Wrote: In addition to having a sister, sister-in-law, and friends who worked for DCFS, I have experienced and know others in my community that have been abused by the system. I am not talking about what I have read in text books; I am talking about what I have lived. Please read: http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/06/call-to-action-my-personal-story.html. Also, if you are the biological parent of “your daughter,” I apologize. If not, my heart goes out to her, her mother, her father, her grandparents, her cousins, her friends, etc. I stand by my beliefs and feelings because unfortunately, life … to include racism and bigotry has been my teacher. Unfortunately for those that are benefiting monetarily from foster care and the unconstitutional and criminal activity in our juvenile courts, I am on an unstoppable mission … and I will continue to educate the public about what is taking place. So for all foster parents that have moved from collecting a welfare check every month, due to welfare reform, to collecting a foster care check you may one day have to get a real job!
DT Wrote: If you are on such a mission to rid the world of the mean people at DCFS, why do you have friends that work there?
I feel very sorry for you because you look at this world as one big conspiracy that revolves around you and what you think. It simply doesn't work as simple as you say. As long as there are people who choose to have children and then neglect, abuse, torture and leave them, there will always be a need for people to take care of them.
I am not the biological mother of my daughter but her biological mother chose to abandon her. I brought this child to visit her every single day and she would show up so out of it on drugs with track marks on her arms and shaking so bad she couldn't hold the baby. Her mother was with her and was the same. Did you catch the part about my daughter having brain damage because of the drugs and alcohol her mother took while pregnant??? I didn't need a social worker to tell me that, I live with it everyday.
You are closed minded individual who protests that you were mistreated by racists, etc. You are one of them.
VictimofCPS Wrote: Dt … I truly feel sorry for you because obviously the truth hurts deeply. What hurts the most? Is it the fact that you will have to get up and get a real job, when the federal government finally puts an end to the black-market selling of children? After all, civil and constitutional laws and/or rights WILL NOT continue to be violated without the government eventually stepping in – it is just a matter of time. Remember, not too long ago people like me were not allowed to drink out of the same water fountain with you, we had to sit on the back of the bus … you know the rest; And I DEFINITELY would not have been able to attend the college I went to. Or are you upset because you will no longer be able to sit at home and benefit financially from the torture and destruction of innocent parents and their children?
[Why do I have friends that work for Child Protective Services] Perhaps you should re-read my statement … they “worked” for CPS, as in past tense. Decent people would not and DO NOT knowingly participate in the activities of CPS … not as social workers, judges, attorneys for the state, nor as foster “parents.” I understand that some people are unable to have children of their own, but this is not the way to scratch that itch.
[As long as there are people who choose to have children and then neglect, abuse, torture, and leave them, there will always be a need for people to take care of them] My son spent kindergarten, 1st grade, and 3rd grade in private schools before his legalized kidnapping, while in 4th grade. Also before being kidnapped by the state, just before his 10th birthday, he had visited Disney World, Disney Land, Sea World, The World Famous San Diego Zoo, The Wild Animal Park, Niagara Falls, The Hoover Dam, Las Vegas, climbed Lady Liberty in NY, visited the top floor of the Sears Tower in Chicago, and had taken TWO cross country trips, and was headed to Hawaii before being kidnapped, just to name a few. He had been involved in boys gymnastics, tennis, piano and guitar lessons, chess, studied French and Spanish, lived in a gated community with a pool and Jacuzzi, above average in EVERY subject, straight A’s in private NOT public school, perfect attendance for years in school, etc. He was always impeccably dressed, because after all he is a reflection of me, to include professional hair cuts weekly at the barber shop. He had excellent private medical and dental coverage, and was not on public aid. He had BOTH a mother and father working to care for his every need. And most importantly, he has a mother that loves, adores, treasures, and cares for him like no other child I know. I could go on and on … but I think you get the picture. So although you, and people like you, feel a need to SAVE THE WORLD, your help is not always needed … nor wanted. There is a lot more that I would like to say but will refrain. By the way, my son was also “abandoned,” because “I didn’t want him.”
As far as your personal attacks on me, I will not dignify them with a response; because you would have to KNOW ME in order to intelligently and convincingly speak on what I think or feel. In the future if you would like to debate the issues of foster care and forced adoption, your argument would be more effective if you stuck to the facts and not allow emotions to get the best of you. Until then, I will be waiting for you to state verifiable facts and statistics.
Have a good night!
Cy Wrote: I dont think it is fair to put children in foster homes. I think they should let the relatives step in first. I know this because my children were taken from me in October 2005 just because i didnt pick them up from school on time they were put in foster care and they were abused from the foster parents and no one did anything about it. I even told the police and they did nothing, and my worker did nothing to help me at all. I am working on a law suit for Lassen County because of all the abuse that happened to my 3 and 5 year old babies. One was punched in the mouth for sucking her thumb and the worker knew about it. My 5 year old told her what happened and she called her a liar right in front of me and my husband. So much has happened to them, and i feel so bad for them. This isnt the end for CPS -- they will always ruin families and homes as long as they can; And i think it is time that all the parents stand up and fight all the wrongdoing done by CPS. Lassen County is really bad -- they do nothing but take children from parents just so they can get a check at the end of the month. CPS should weed out the stupid calls and get to the really bad ones; but they tend to worry about the little stuff and ignore the big stuff. For example, what about the lady that threw her kids off the San Francisco Bridge -- her family told CPS about this and they did nothing and this became a really big deal. CPS worries about parents that spank their children instead of the parents that are threatening to kill their kids. CPS in San Francisco was told a week before the mother threw her children over the San Francisco Bridge in order to feed them to the sharks what her intentions were but they said there was no reason to take the children -- and now look three children are dead because CPS was worried about the minor crap instead of the real stuff.
IN Wrote: Trust me the number of cases that you are referring to are heavily out numbered of the cases where the kids aren't taken quick enough OR given back too soon.
the scenario that you mentioned has to have too many factors in it for someone to be wrongly accused and a child taken. That is why the numbers are so different.
VictimofCPS Wrote: Well, perhaps you can explain the disproportionate number of Black and Latino children in “the system” compared to White children? With the number of predominantly White communities, from coast to coast, reeling from the effects of methamphetamine use one would expect the numbers to be the other way around. Do you have a logical explanation? If so, I am willing to listen. In the meantime, please read http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/06/call-to-action-my-personal-story.html (&)
http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/06/modern-day-lynching-it-is-no-longer.html.
When you have read the two links above, just let me know and I will supply you with tons of additional links. This issue is far too serious of an issue to get hung up on what I think or what you think, the statistics speak for themselves and facts are facts. Furthermore, innocent children and families SHOULD NEVER have their lives torn apart unnecessarily – IT IS AN ABOMINATION!
IN Wrote: Why are the black and latino communites larger in prisons?
I can tell you this with in the agency that I work for in foster care we have more whites than blacks and latinos, right now. Also we are getting children 3 and 4 at a time due to Meth. Almost daily we get a call looking for a family that can take some kids taken from a meth home.
In fact one of our regions has split 2 times in the last 18 months due to the expansion needed for kids taken from Meth houses. Overwhelmingly they are white.
ALWAYS the kids are innocent. But what is the abomination is when daddy gets drunk or high and mama doesn't stop him from burning or kicking little Billy.
95% of the time where there is smoke there is fire. It is just sometimes CPS goes in with a water tanker when they need a squirt gun. But like I have said before, for every case that turns out a mistake was made, there are dozens and dozens that weren't.
You talk about stats and facts let me see those to evaluate them for myself.
VictimofCPS Wrote: I agree with your water tanker/squirt gun analogy. However, what I find interesting is that whenever the injustice, corruption, criminal and conspiratorial nature of CPS is discussed people tend to talk about the extreme cases of abuse which WE ALL agree are wrong; but we try to ignore the fact that for every one child saved, CPS has destroyed 700 families in the process. As far as stats are concerned, a simple trip to your local library or a quick internet search would really open your eyes to what is truly taking place behind the veil, if in fact you are truly unaware.
VictimofCPS Wrote: To address your question Why are Black and Latino communities larger in prison, I would like to answer that question with a question … Why are so many innocent Blacks and Latinos being released from prison after serving 20 or more years behind bars, thanks to the Innocence Project and other groups committed to justice?
Also … when you decide to do some independent research, you may want to start in Milwaukee County. Although White children, countywide, outnumber Black children at a rate of nearly 3 to 1 … Black children outnumber White children in the foster care system 7 to 1. Perhaps you can explain this to me? And in Minnesota Black children are more than 16 times as likely than White children to be removed from their homes … why? Could it be the same reason Blacks are arrested and/or thrown in prison more than other races of people? Whether you want to accept it or not, racism is still very much alive and well!
AR Wrote: ALWAYS the kids are innocent. But what is the abomination is when daddy gets drunk or high and mama doesn't stop him from burning or kicking little Billy.
Which is the case in less then 3% of the removals in the U.S. However, Children are per capita five times more likely to be killed in foster care, fifteen times more likely to be sexually abused, but only twice as likely to be neglected, this information though comes from only about 2 thirds of the states. If the information from all the states and territories were factored in they would go higher. Yes the children are innocent, That is why due process of law requires removals only when there is evidence that the child's life is in danger or severe harm may result simply because the very effect of removing the child causes severe mental and emotional trauma to said child.
During meetings in Arizona to support SB1430 A bill to increase evidence needed for removal to the same as employed for native american children and create an independent investigative body to check up on CPS several case workers were worried about their jobs and stated by "requiring real evidence we will not be able to remove most of these children". They wouldn't answer some parents question on what they meant by real evidence. The investigative body not under their control scared them senseless.
just out of curiosity, were you aware of the following federal law
Sec. 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law Whoever, under color of any law, statue, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexaul abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
It does apply to case workers, at least in the ninth circuit, so it behooves all case workers to know what a families constitutional rights are. 8-) After all, we live in an era of "ignorance of the law is no excuse."
To view this entire debate and to vote on whether or not grandparents or foster care providers should be the states’ first choice for placement when children are removed from their parents’ custody, please visit:http://forums.kentucky.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=kr-kentgennews&msg=1671.1 Or simply click on the title above The Heated Debate.
If you believe that foster care should be reserved for children that are orphaned, or have TRULY been abandoned by their parents and ALL extended family members; If you believe that children in foster care should actually be victims of abuse and/or neglect, once proven by a judge and jury NOT a social worker with a God complex; If you believe in the Constitution and civil rights for all, no matter what their economic, social, or cultural group may be – Please sign the petitions referenced at www.squidoo.com/abolishcps/ (scroll down to Get Involved!!!). Thank you in advance for your participation!
C Wrote:Placement should be based on more than relationship. If grandparents are considered fit, than they should get the children. But, they need to be investigated like anyone else that are receiving the children.
X Wrote:It DISGUSTS me that anyone can take a child away from you with no evidence what so ever of any type of abuse. I heard a story about a mother and father who had a son and he broke his arm when he was about 3 months old. They took him to the hospital and he was taken away right there. They then put him into foster care and the family doctor soon found out that there son had a disorder where your bones are very fragile (don’t remember the name sorry) and can break very easily. Even then the social workers said that the parents did it and when they had supervised visits they would break there sons arms. The whole story was barbaric and even after doctor after doctor would tell the social workers that the parents are not doing it that it was the disorder, they did everything in there power to keep the son away from there very innocent parents. A few years later the family got there son back after the court ruled that "the parents showed to have changed and gone through the parenting classes successfully". There was more to the story but it was just completely barbaric that anyone could do this to a child and his family with no sign that there was any type of abuse.
G Wrote:Grandparents should have the right to temporary custody. In the article in today’s paper there is no evidence of any abuse. The child should have never been removed in the first place. There is a problem with the system. No grounds for removal. We need a change in our legal system. To protect the children not to satisfy the legal system or some government agency.
A Wrote:Each case is different…the question is too general. In a perfect world…the grandparents…but this is far from a perfect world.
i vote no first choice. Until questions of ‘learned behavior’ are answered.
IN Wrote:Horrible story but you have to realize that for every story like this one, there are 5 or 6 more where a child was not taken or where a child was given back to the parents and abuse happened again.
In a lot of those cases the Grandparents had the kids at one point.
I think there should be qualifiers for the grandparents, just like there is for foster parents. Maybe even the same training and requirements. I have seen too many cases where the kids went to live with their grandparents and the same thing happened. (some times worse)
Yet I do agree that the grandparents/relatives should have the first shot at the child.
Working for an agency that has foster care and residential programs I have seen my share of what some parents can do, and it never fails to shock me what some can do.
VictimofCPS Wrote:What about the lifelong irreversible damage caused by corrupt cops, social workers, foster “parents,” judges, attorneys, and government agencies?
Cr Wrote:I am a grandparent that has my grandchild placed with me through social services and I feel that any child removed while any investigation is being done needs to be placed in the least restrictive environment whether it be a grandparent or any other relative.
L Wrote:I believe that grandparents should have a state background check like I had to try and get my 4 grandchildren, my state check came back clean, I attended foster parent training, CPR and First Aide, TB test, done all that and then I find out due to a substantial report that a case was never opened, which was Educational Neglect, not child neglect or abuse, see when my daughter was 16 she was of legal age to quit school, I couldnt make her go to school at 16, Lord knows I tried, but the welfare got a call from the school, so when they came to my house all they said to me was that I had to go to the school to legally sign her out, so because of that I could never get a foster care license in Terre Haute, now I could understand if it was child abuse but it wasnt. So I mention I would move to Kentucky to get my grandkids through Kinship, and the Cabinet in Kentucky tells me that I couldnt get them only because they think that I would stay there living long enough till the case was closed and bring them back to Indiana where I am buying a house, they dont feel that would be in the best interest of the children, WHAT I would be giving them a permanent place to live in Indiana, I dont plan on selling my home, so what is their problem????
Any suggestions on what I can or should do about this?
ML Wrote:No matter what the family should always be preserved. Everyone has skeletons in their closets, even foster people. A child would always be more comfortable being with a grandparent then someone they have never met and doesn't have any real interest of where that child came from other than making money.
AN Wrote:I disagree for one main reason:
1) There is too great a chance of those grandparent facilitating the parent in question. If a court orders a mother to stay away from the kids and the grandparents have them, who is more likely to keep the mother away? A direct, blood relative who birthed the miscreant or a separate family not related to or associated with the situation?
The happiness and welfare of a child has nothing to do with genetics.
VictimofCPS Wrote: You are the epitome of everything wrong in our society and in our juvenile courts. Might I suggest that you talk to some of these “miscreants” and their children -- you may be surprised to find out who the true miscreants are!
You must be a judge, attorney, social worker, foster “parent,” or some other party benefiting from the torture of innocent children and families – which one are you ... please tell us?
AR Wrote: that is actually incorrect, the happiness and welfare of the children has much to do with family relations. Further since less then 3% of removals are actual abuse it should not apply.
the other removals are for alleged neglect which is more often then not poverty. The ones that are so often trumpeted in the media are the exception not the rule.
AR Wrote:
unfortunately, in many places it's becoming common place to remove the child without evidence and place in foster care. While foster parents do not receive much money the state and counties do, money that they do not have to account for.
AR Wrote:Yes they do want to adopt out the children!!!! They get federal money for adopting out children that is why they put obstacles in the path of families.
AN Wrote: Family isn’t necessarily genetic. THAT’s my point. Take an infant from an abusive, neglectful birth mother, raise him or her with loving, non-related parents and that child is better off. Better off than with the grandparents where he or she will be raised in an environment that is a reminder of the situation.
For you to state that blood relation matters more is wrong. Do what is best for the child. Don't hang on to these vague and wishy-washy concepts of "keep it in the family." If it is best for the child to leave the situation, let him or her LEAVE the situation including the, necessarily involved, grandparents.
VictimofCPS Wrote:
Here are just a few definitions of family for you:
1) A fundamental social group in society typically consisting of one or two PARENTS AND THEIR CHILDREN; (2) A group of persons sharing COMMON ancestry; (3) LINEAGE, especially distinguished lineage; (4) A group of BLOOD RELATIVES; (5) A group of RELATED plants or animals; (6) A group of LIKE things; (7) Biology: A taxonomic category of RELATED organisms; (8) Linguistics: A group of languages descended from the SAME PARENT LANGUAGE;(9) Chemistry: A group of elements with SIMILAR chemical properties. Or perhaps you will appreciate the following definition: A locally independent organized crime unit, as of the Cosa Nostra … and I would like to add CPS and their co-conspirators.
MM Wrote:No it certainly doesn't. This is a very difficult issue for society because we don't agree what is the best interest of the child. Although I don't mean to imply that bad parenting is the only cause of people having problems it does strike me as weird that people who have been visibly unsuccessful as parents take another shot at it.
BE Wrote:While that may be true, children will eventually grow up and learn who they really are. I think it would be best for them to know who their true family is.
DT Wrote:I have been reading with interest these posts since the started. I wholeheartedly agree with AN. I am a foster and adoptive parent. My 3 y/o daughter was brought to us when she was 4 months old. She was malnourished and failure to thrive. Parents could not tell the social workers when the last time she ate. In addition, our daughter was a drug baby and has brain damage because her mom took drugs and drank the whole time she was pregnant. Grandmother had no home and a criminal history a mile long. You are telling me that my daughter should have been given to these people. They would have had to take her from me over my dead body. Blood is not thicker than water Love is
FA Wrote: Yes - Grandparents should be investigated for long term placement to insure they are not child abusers. However, a simple home visit and a little common sense should suffice for a temporary placement. If an investigation is done, it should again use common sense. Instead they drag in ridiculous old history that had nothing to do with child neglect or endangerment. If they put our USA Presidents through such rigorous investigations, we would not find anyone clean enough and if we did, they would have to give up their children after the investigation because they would fail CPS rules to be a parents Also, I might add that foster parents are not scrutinized to the same level as biological parents.
Having a child drop out of school at 16 years old is not child neglect. Anyone ever tried to make a sixteen year old go to school? This excluded one grandparent!
DT Wrote: I agree the system is overwhelmed. My post was really aimed at those people who felt that under all circumstances children should be placed with family.
And we are slowly becoming "experts" on FAS, support groups, educational conferences, books, etc. Please let me know if you know of any resources at all.
VictimofCPS Wrote:If grandparents should be put through background checks, etc … what’s next? Should everyone planning to have children be required to pass a background check, parenting training, CPR, First Aide, TB tests, etc? When and where do we draw the line on government interference into the personal lives of free citizens of this country? Also, why are constitutional, criminal, moral, and ethical laws allowed to be broken in juvenile court?
VictimofCPS Wrote:Dt … no offense to you, perhaps you truly mean well; but 99.9% of what the social workers are feeding foster “parents” is a load of crap. And “your daughter” should be with the parents God chose for her. Please read http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/07/goodbye-meeting.html. If you need additional TRUTHS, just let me know.
DT Wrote: I would be very interested in your background on the foster care system that allows you to know that "99.9% of what the social workers feed us is crap"
For your information, OUR DAUGHTER is with the parents God chose for her.
VictimofCPS Wrote: In addition to having a sister, sister-in-law, and friends who worked for DCFS, I have experienced and know others in my community that have been abused by the system. I am not talking about what I have read in text books; I am talking about what I have lived. Please read: http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/06/call-to-action-my-personal-story.html. Also, if you are the biological parent of “your daughter,” I apologize. If not, my heart goes out to her, her mother, her father, her grandparents, her cousins, her friends, etc. I stand by my beliefs and feelings because unfortunately, life … to include racism and bigotry has been my teacher. Unfortunately for those that are benefiting monetarily from foster care and the unconstitutional and criminal activity in our juvenile courts, I am on an unstoppable mission … and I will continue to educate the public about what is taking place. So for all foster parents that have moved from collecting a welfare check every month, due to welfare reform, to collecting a foster care check you may one day have to get a real job!
DT Wrote: If you are on such a mission to rid the world of the mean people at DCFS, why do you have friends that work there?
I feel very sorry for you because you look at this world as one big conspiracy that revolves around you and what you think. It simply doesn't work as simple as you say. As long as there are people who choose to have children and then neglect, abuse, torture and leave them, there will always be a need for people to take care of them.
I am not the biological mother of my daughter but her biological mother chose to abandon her. I brought this child to visit her every single day and she would show up so out of it on drugs with track marks on her arms and shaking so bad she couldn't hold the baby. Her mother was with her and was the same. Did you catch the part about my daughter having brain damage because of the drugs and alcohol her mother took while pregnant??? I didn't need a social worker to tell me that, I live with it everyday.
You are closed minded individual who protests that you were mistreated by racists, etc. You are one of them.
VictimofCPS Wrote: Dt … I truly feel sorry for you because obviously the truth hurts deeply. What hurts the most? Is it the fact that you will have to get up and get a real job, when the federal government finally puts an end to the black-market selling of children? After all, civil and constitutional laws and/or rights WILL NOT continue to be violated without the government eventually stepping in – it is just a matter of time. Remember, not too long ago people like me were not allowed to drink out of the same water fountain with you, we had to sit on the back of the bus … you know the rest; And I DEFINITELY would not have been able to attend the college I went to. Or are you upset because you will no longer be able to sit at home and benefit financially from the torture and destruction of innocent parents and their children?
[Why do I have friends that work for Child Protective Services] Perhaps you should re-read my statement … they “worked” for CPS, as in past tense. Decent people would not and DO NOT knowingly participate in the activities of CPS … not as social workers, judges, attorneys for the state, nor as foster “parents.” I understand that some people are unable to have children of their own, but this is not the way to scratch that itch.
[As long as there are people who choose to have children and then neglect, abuse, torture, and leave them, there will always be a need for people to take care of them] My son spent kindergarten, 1st grade, and 3rd grade in private schools before his legalized kidnapping, while in 4th grade. Also before being kidnapped by the state, just before his 10th birthday, he had visited Disney World, Disney Land, Sea World, The World Famous San Diego Zoo, The Wild Animal Park, Niagara Falls, The Hoover Dam, Las Vegas, climbed Lady Liberty in NY, visited the top floor of the Sears Tower in Chicago, and had taken TWO cross country trips, and was headed to Hawaii before being kidnapped, just to name a few. He had been involved in boys gymnastics, tennis, piano and guitar lessons, chess, studied French and Spanish, lived in a gated community with a pool and Jacuzzi, above average in EVERY subject, straight A’s in private NOT public school, perfect attendance for years in school, etc. He was always impeccably dressed, because after all he is a reflection of me, to include professional hair cuts weekly at the barber shop. He had excellent private medical and dental coverage, and was not on public aid. He had BOTH a mother and father working to care for his every need. And most importantly, he has a mother that loves, adores, treasures, and cares for him like no other child I know. I could go on and on … but I think you get the picture. So although you, and people like you, feel a need to SAVE THE WORLD, your help is not always needed … nor wanted. There is a lot more that I would like to say but will refrain. By the way, my son was also “abandoned,” because “I didn’t want him.”
As far as your personal attacks on me, I will not dignify them with a response; because you would have to KNOW ME in order to intelligently and convincingly speak on what I think or feel. In the future if you would like to debate the issues of foster care and forced adoption, your argument would be more effective if you stuck to the facts and not allow emotions to get the best of you. Until then, I will be waiting for you to state verifiable facts and statistics.
Have a good night!
Cy Wrote: I dont think it is fair to put children in foster homes. I think they should let the relatives step in first. I know this because my children were taken from me in October 2005 just because i didnt pick them up from school on time they were put in foster care and they were abused from the foster parents and no one did anything about it. I even told the police and they did nothing, and my worker did nothing to help me at all. I am working on a law suit for Lassen County because of all the abuse that happened to my 3 and 5 year old babies. One was punched in the mouth for sucking her thumb and the worker knew about it. My 5 year old told her what happened and she called her a liar right in front of me and my husband. So much has happened to them, and i feel so bad for them. This isnt the end for CPS -- they will always ruin families and homes as long as they can; And i think it is time that all the parents stand up and fight all the wrongdoing done by CPS. Lassen County is really bad -- they do nothing but take children from parents just so they can get a check at the end of the month. CPS should weed out the stupid calls and get to the really bad ones; but they tend to worry about the little stuff and ignore the big stuff. For example, what about the lady that threw her kids off the San Francisco Bridge -- her family told CPS about this and they did nothing and this became a really big deal. CPS worries about parents that spank their children instead of the parents that are threatening to kill their kids. CPS in San Francisco was told a week before the mother threw her children over the San Francisco Bridge in order to feed them to the sharks what her intentions were but they said there was no reason to take the children -- and now look three children are dead because CPS was worried about the minor crap instead of the real stuff.
IN Wrote: Trust me the number of cases that you are referring to are heavily out numbered of the cases where the kids aren't taken quick enough OR given back too soon.
the scenario that you mentioned has to have too many factors in it for someone to be wrongly accused and a child taken. That is why the numbers are so different.
VictimofCPS Wrote: Well, perhaps you can explain the disproportionate number of Black and Latino children in “the system” compared to White children? With the number of predominantly White communities, from coast to coast, reeling from the effects of methamphetamine use one would expect the numbers to be the other way around. Do you have a logical explanation? If so, I am willing to listen. In the meantime, please read http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/06/call-to-action-my-personal-story.html (&)
http://abolishcps.blogspot.com/2006/06/modern-day-lynching-it-is-no-longer.html.
When you have read the two links above, just let me know and I will supply you with tons of additional links. This issue is far too serious of an issue to get hung up on what I think or what you think, the statistics speak for themselves and facts are facts. Furthermore, innocent children and families SHOULD NEVER have their lives torn apart unnecessarily – IT IS AN ABOMINATION!
IN Wrote: Why are the black and latino communites larger in prisons?
I can tell you this with in the agency that I work for in foster care we have more whites than blacks and latinos, right now. Also we are getting children 3 and 4 at a time due to Meth. Almost daily we get a call looking for a family that can take some kids taken from a meth home.
In fact one of our regions has split 2 times in the last 18 months due to the expansion needed for kids taken from Meth houses. Overwhelmingly they are white.
ALWAYS the kids are innocent. But what is the abomination is when daddy gets drunk or high and mama doesn't stop him from burning or kicking little Billy.
95% of the time where there is smoke there is fire. It is just sometimes CPS goes in with a water tanker when they need a squirt gun. But like I have said before, for every case that turns out a mistake was made, there are dozens and dozens that weren't.
You talk about stats and facts let me see those to evaluate them for myself.
VictimofCPS Wrote: I agree with your water tanker/squirt gun analogy. However, what I find interesting is that whenever the injustice, corruption, criminal and conspiratorial nature of CPS is discussed people tend to talk about the extreme cases of abuse which WE ALL agree are wrong; but we try to ignore the fact that for every one child saved, CPS has destroyed 700 families in the process. As far as stats are concerned, a simple trip to your local library or a quick internet search would really open your eyes to what is truly taking place behind the veil, if in fact you are truly unaware.
VictimofCPS Wrote: To address your question Why are Black and Latino communities larger in prison, I would like to answer that question with a question … Why are so many innocent Blacks and Latinos being released from prison after serving 20 or more years behind bars, thanks to the Innocence Project and other groups committed to justice?
Also … when you decide to do some independent research, you may want to start in Milwaukee County. Although White children, countywide, outnumber Black children at a rate of nearly 3 to 1 … Black children outnumber White children in the foster care system 7 to 1. Perhaps you can explain this to me? And in Minnesota Black children are more than 16 times as likely than White children to be removed from their homes … why? Could it be the same reason Blacks are arrested and/or thrown in prison more than other races of people? Whether you want to accept it or not, racism is still very much alive and well!
AR Wrote: ALWAYS the kids are innocent. But what is the abomination is when daddy gets drunk or high and mama doesn't stop him from burning or kicking little Billy.
Which is the case in less then 3% of the removals in the U.S. However, Children are per capita five times more likely to be killed in foster care, fifteen times more likely to be sexually abused, but only twice as likely to be neglected, this information though comes from only about 2 thirds of the states. If the information from all the states and territories were factored in they would go higher. Yes the children are innocent, That is why due process of law requires removals only when there is evidence that the child's life is in danger or severe harm may result simply because the very effect of removing the child causes severe mental and emotional trauma to said child.
During meetings in Arizona to support SB1430 A bill to increase evidence needed for removal to the same as employed for native american children and create an independent investigative body to check up on CPS several case workers were worried about their jobs and stated by "requiring real evidence we will not be able to remove most of these children". They wouldn't answer some parents question on what they meant by real evidence. The investigative body not under their control scared them senseless.
just out of curiosity, were you aware of the following federal law
Sec. 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law Whoever, under color of any law, statue, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexaul abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
It does apply to case workers, at least in the ninth circuit, so it behooves all case workers to know what a families constitutional rights are. 8-) After all, we live in an era of "ignorance of the law is no excuse."
To view this entire debate and to vote on whether or not grandparents or foster care providers should be the states’ first choice for placement when children are removed from their parents’ custody, please visit:http://forums.kentucky.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=kr-kentgennews&msg=1671.1 Or simply click on the title above The Heated Debate.
If you believe that foster care should be reserved for children that are orphaned, or have TRULY been abandoned by their parents and ALL extended family members; If you believe that children in foster care should actually be victims of abuse and/or neglect, once proven by a judge and jury NOT a social worker with a God complex; If you believe in the Constitution and civil rights for all, no matter what their economic, social, or cultural group may be – Please sign the petitions referenced at www.squidoo.com/abolishcps/ (scroll down to Get Involved!!!). Thank you in advance for your participation!
posted by DCFSvictim | 8:49 AM
